25 FEBRUARY 1940

SRI AUROBINDO: That is a different matter. Each one will of course receive in his own language. An Englishman won't receive in Bengali or Gujarati. That depends on the response of the mind, the vital being or whatever it may be . About Ahimsa (non-violence), animals feel if a person is really non violent or not and they approach person according to that feeling. But what I want to know is whether Jainism accepts any intermediary such as a Guru who helps a disciple in the spiritual path. There are religions like Buddhism who don't believe in such things. Buddhism strongly says that one has to rely on one's own effort. Nobody can help one. By the teachings or precepts or instructions, the path can be shown - that's all.- but no other direct and active help can be given in Jainism too?

PURANI: Yes. They give the example of a cow and grass. If the grass is supplied, the cow has to manufacture its own milk from it by it's own endeavour. Nobody can help the cow in that process. Thirthankaras are only Nimittas (instrument)

NIRODBARAN: Surendra Mohan Ghose said to Sahana that there was a rumour in Calcutta that she has been given the work in Building Service work as a punishment for her egoism as a singer.

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Nishikanto has been given cooking work as a punishment for singing every day now?

NIRODBARAN: They must have come to the conclusion at that time when she had stopped her music for a while.

SRI AUROBINDO: And now is her egoism gone since she is doing singing as well as doing Building Service work?

NIRODBARAN: Sisir says one of the reason for A's anger against the Ashram is Dilip, since he attacks people for their criticism of his poetry . A says, "Why doesn't Sri Aurobindo say anything?"

SRI AUROBINDO: How is that? He can express his own views.

26 FEBRUARY 1940

NIRODBARAN: The Princess of Gauripur, whenever she looks at THE MOTHER, finds tears flowing from her eyes. She can't look at THE MOTHER!

SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): She can look at her but can't see her.

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NIRODBARAN: She doesn't know why the tears come. She can't analyse her feelings.

SRI AUROBINDO: They are psychic tears. Her psychic being is behind the veil but sufficiently near the surface.

NIRODBARAN: She says she is seeking refuge, inner refuge.

SRI AUROBINDO: Of course.

NIRODBARAN: But she doesn't know where to get it. Her family life is in a way quite happy. She is the pet of the family. Her husband loves her very much but she feels guilty that she cannot give him any response.

SRI AUROBINDO: These things can't be helped.

NIRODBARAN: Family life doesn't appeal to her. When her mother was dying, she prayed to God to spare her but God didn't listen, so she thought, "If God doesn't listen, what is the use of calling him?" She said, "If he does everything according to his own will, I have no use for God." So she became indifferent.

SRI AUROBINDO: She wanted God to act according to her will and not his own? (Laughter)

PURANI: A wanted to know what you thought of his guru, S. He was telling me that S once heard a voice: "A needs help." At that time A was passing through some difficulty. S came to him and told him about the voice. A admitted his difficulty but said it would get all right. Some time later A came by a copy of your Essays on the Gita and when he was reading it he was possessed by some power and he felt that you alone could give him guidance. By the time S came to give him the Rama Mantra which had been given to him by somebody, A had already got the same Mantra automatically; so there was no question of taking it again. Because of this connection with S, A has an attachment to him and so he has requested you to let S have your darshan. S has come here both from curiosity and because of A. He was telling A that when he was coming for the Darshan he heard a voice which was your voice, saying to him, "You are a special personality and you are welcome." He hasn't spoken of his impression of you or THE MOTHER or of his own feelings; he praised only the external side of the Ashram. So I thought that to come all the way merely to hear that voice was a rather poor result. (Sri Aurobindo smiled when he heard about the voice.)

NIRODBARAN: He didn't come in order to hear that voice.

SATYENDRA: But it may have a far-reaching result for him. (Laughter)

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SRI AUROBINDO: If he is a special personality, he need not have come all the way here to know that.

SATYENDRA: That special personality was hiding there, Sir, and it came out here. (Laughter)

PURANI: He hears many voices and attaches great importance to them. And because he has got some correct guidance at times from such voices he takes them as authentic. Just before the Hindu Muslim riot in Lahore, he heard a voice predicting that a great calamity would befall him but in the end be all right. Actually he got stabbed in the back. The voice told him not to perturbed and he became well soon.

SRI AUROBINDO: There are many kind of voices. Some are of greater beings who have more knowledge than human being. Some voices come from one's own mental, vital and physical planes. And then there are voices of the inner being which are very difficult to distinguish.

PURANI: In external affairs too he is guided by his voices, for example, in connection with changing houses. He gets warnings about accidents also.

SRI AUROBINDO: Such voices are good for the external life and they can be beneficial but they don't carry one far in the inner life.

PURANI: And this voice about special personality? I can't believe that at all. He must have wanted to hear such a voice.

SRI AUROBINDO: Wish-fulfilment? (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: The voices sometimes want to mock him perhaps. (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: The man has force and a great ambition but he has not gone very deep. That was Mother's impression.

PURANI: When V went back from here S asked him to take initiation from him. V refused, saying "I have had my initiation."

SRI AUROBINDO: S has the ambition to be a Guru.

PURANI: It's very strange he didn't feel anything else here, while Ganapati who is also not a disciple felt a higher consciousness here.

SRI AUROBINDO: Ganapati had considerable spiritual experience. S didn't appear to have gone very deep. Does he know the source of his voices?

PURANI: He says that they come from Overmind.

SATYENDRA: That is your term, Sir.

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SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. (Laughter)

PURANI: According to S he goes to the Truth above the mind and hears the voices.

SRI AUROBINDO: From the Truth-Consciousness? (Laughter)

PURANI: Yes. By Overmind he means anything above the mind. He has many influential disciples and many rich persons follow him.

SATYENDRA: It is all right if he only gives them Rama-nama and stops there.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, otherwise, if they go by voices, they will land themselves in difficulties.

SATYENDRA: I was the first to come in contact with him. Sir. He had some tooth-trouble and he came to me. I may have passed something to him! Anyway, he seems to be in fine health and is a personality.

SRI AUROBINDO: He is a fine-looking man.

PURANI: A was anxious to know what your impression of him was, and also of his spiritual destiny. He feels that S is stuck. But can't he be helped out?

SRI AUROBINDO: It is very difficult to help people who are self-satisfied with their condition, and, unless he gets rid of his ambition, further advance may be difficult.

PURANI: When somebody said to him that the work here is different from that outside, he answered, "This is said to create faith in the followers. Every great man says about whatever work he is doing that it is divine. Gandhi calls his Harijan work divine work."

SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? The Divine has several works.

SATYENDRA (after some time): I find that you are the first to distinguish the planes above the mind.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why? I have met many Sannyasins who spoke to me about them. They call these planes Bhumis. They didn't give any names to them but they knew about them.

27 FEBRUARY 1940

NIRODBARAN: Anilbaran's letter. This time it is about politics. He writes: "A Zamindar of Mymensingh named Umapada came to see me and said that oppression by the Muslim League has terribly increased."

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SRI AUROBINDO: Suren Ghose in his interview with THE MOTHER has spoken all about it and the Mother has said whatever is necessary.

NIRODBARAN: The letter continues: "Brajendra says communism is spreading among the youth and Congress can't stand against it. The only way, I told him, is to propagate Sri Aurobindo's ideas and, leaving Gandhi's constructive programme, take up the old village communism."

SRI AUROBINDO: Communism? All that is an old formula. It won't do at all. How is he going to link at Sri Aurobindo's communism? And where was there ever village communism in India?

NIRODBARAN: Why? what about the Panchayat systems, etc.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is the village Commune, not communism. Communism means having common property.

NIRODBARAN: I think he means commune. Then he says: "About politics there is no necessity to fight the British any more, because they can't stand now against India's will. Now by exerting pressure on government, we must get power and accept the ministers as a corollary."

SRI AUROBINDO: All that is old; there is nothing new in it Next?

NIRODBARAN: "To make this effective we must have unity and the pressure of a united will."

SRI AUROBINDO: How is he going to get it?

NIRODBARAN: By following your trends of thought. Unity not only of India but of the whole world: the principle of unity lies there. Now Public Enemy N0.1 is Bolshevism, No. 2 Communism, No.3 perhaps Gandhism.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why perhaps? (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN: The remedy is to broadcast Sri Aurobindo's ideas and ideals extensively and to try large scale production.

SRI AUROBINDO: Large-scale production of what?

NIRODBARAN: Don't know.

SATYENDRA: Industrial production he means.

NIRODBARAN: Or perhaps human production. (Laughter)

PURANI: He speaks of Gandhism as Public Enemy No.3 because he overvalues Gandhi's influence and his philosophy. His programme is accepted because there is no other.

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SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, Gandhi's programme is the only one at present.

PURANI: When some revolutionary approached Tilak, Tilak said, "If you can show me even a fifty-five percent chance of success of a revolution I shall be ready to raise the standard of revolt. But is the country ready? Are the people willing to join the army? What will you do when the British army attacks you?" The revolutionary couldn't convince Tilak.

SRI AUROBINDO: Armed revolution is impossible at present. At the time we started work, there was some chance of success because the instruments of war were not so developed. If irregular and guerilla warfare had been carried out on a country-wide scale, there might have been some chance. But now with aeroplanes and machine-guns, etc., armed revolution would be crushed in no time.

NIRODBARAN: Perhaps the aim of the revolutionaries is not so much to fight the British army as to intimidate the British Government.

SRI AUROBINDO: A small number of revolutionaries won't intimidate the Government. Even if they succeed, the Government will not give independence but Dominion Status, which they are willing even now to give after some time. England will give up India only when she finds it impossible to retain her, either because of the threat of defeat or because the whole nation is united behind the demand for independence.

NIRODBARAN: In Ireland they were forced to submit. They could have crushed Ireland if they had wanted to.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is what Lloyd George threatened - that if De Valera didn't accept the treaty, Ireland would be crushed. All the Irish people were united in one demand and object. Every woman and child was a revolutionary and carried out what the leaders told them. Even then De Valera had to accept the treaty. In India there is no such possibility of country-wide rebellion, even of unarmed rebellion.

NIRODBARAN: When you started the revolutionary movement, did you think it would succeed?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, I had the idea that it would succeed but found that it was not possible.

SATYENDRA (after the talk had touched on several topics): There was a Jain saint, Rajchandra. He seems to have predicted the death of a man, the exact time and date. According to the prediction he

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was to die at night. The saint said, "Unless my consciousness is clouded he will die at night." the man died during the day but on the same date. Sir, is death predestined? Can the exact date be predicted?

SRI AUROBINDO: The date can vary. There are many factors that may come in and push it off this way or that way.

EVENING

NIRODBARAN: Charu Dutt says that the first time he met you was at the train station at Baroda. He was passing through Baroda and you had come to the station to see somebody off. You were accompanied by Hesh and Deshpande. Dutt was travelling with an Englishman, an I.C.S. man probably, and just before Baroda station the Englishman asked, "Do you know where Ghose is now?" "Which Ghose?" "That Classical scholar of Cambridge who has come away to India to waste his future." "Dutt told him that you were at Baroda. When the train stopped there, Hesh saw Dutt and shouted to him: "Dutt do you know Ghose?" Then he introduced you. Dutt said to the Englishman, "Here is Ghose." "That?" the Englishman exclaimed in great surprise, because you had come to the station in the Indian official dress and turban.

SRI AUROBINDO: Turban? Does he mean Palleri cap?

NIRODBARAN: Probably

SRI AUROBINDO: But the official dress also? I don't remember. It is true that at times I used to put on Marathi dress. Then?

NIRODBARAN: That was the first meeting. The second was at his own house in Bombay, where you came with a bundle of papers containing the scheme of the Bhavani Mandir. Oh yes, Jatin Banerji was also at Baroda station.

PURANI: Which Jatin?

SRI AUROBINDO: The one who was at the head of he Baroda army and then went to Calcutta and became head of the young people's revolutionary movement and afterwards became the Sannyasi Niralamba.

NIRODBARAN: You spoke to Dutt, it seems about the scheme of work for the country, that it should be a many-sided activity based on Yoga and Brahmacharya. The idea of programme of work for the country were the same as his own except for Brahmacharya.

SRI AUROBINDO: He couldn't accept it?

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NIRODBARAN: No, and there was opposition to it among the other workers too. And for that reason you had to give it up.

SRI AUROBINDO: Which other workers? I didn't know anybody else. Barin and I were concerned with the scheme but I didn't give it up because of any opposition. Barin was knocking about for a temple in the hills. He only got hill-fever and not the temple. The whole thing fizzled out. It was not a failure because it was never started. I knew that it wouldn't work out. It was not meant to be a success.

NIRODBARAN: Barin got the conception of the Mandir.

SRI AUROBINDO: In automatic writing.

NIRODBARAN: No, in trance, Dutt says.

SRI AUROBINDO: Trance? I never knew that Barin went into trance. And if he had got it in trance he would have told me.

NIRODBARAN: Dutt says it was in a trance in which he had a vision of a temple on a rugged conical hill somewhere between Modhupur and Benaras.

SRI AUROBINDO: The hill was near Benaras.

28 FEBRUARY 1940

NIRODBARAN: I have increased my stock of knowledge today.

PURANI: From where you left off yesterday?

NIRODBARAN: Yes. Sakariababa knew beforehand about the mission but he refused. They told him that you had sent them.

SRI AUROBINDO: How could I? I didn't know him. It was Barin who knew him.

NIRODBARAN: As no entreaty was of avail, Dutt said, "We will send Barin then." He knew Sakaria was very fond of Barin. He then agreed that three months in a year he would stay. The second visit of yours was to his place at Thana.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is right.

NIRODBARAN: There were two Marathis present, one of them was Kaka Patil, I think.

SRI AUROBINDO: Kaka Patil? I seem to remember a name like that.

NIRODBARAN: You had a long argument with them and Dutt about the feasibility of the Mandir. They were practical people and they didn't want to mix up Yoga with politics. In the argument,

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Dutt felt that you yourself were shaky about the idea and you couldn't argue very well.

SRI AUROBINDO: I was shaky?

NIRODBARAN: Yes.

SRI AUROBINDO: Arguing with them? I was never in the habit of arguing. He seems to have given me a character which I never had.

NIRODBARAN: At last you said, "Charu I give it up".

SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! I don't remember having any argument and saying that.

SATYENDRA: But he remembers, Sir. (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN: Though the scheme was given up, Barin and Upen were going ahead in Maniktala training boys in Yoga, Oh yes, when I told him that yesterday he said that you were at Calcutta, so how could you meet him at Bombay? he said it might have been in one of your comings and goings

SRI AUROBINDO: My comings and goings? I had not much money to come and go. (Laughter) And Then?

NIRODBARAN: There were two boys among them who were very remarkable — Prafulla Chaki and Prafulla Chakravarthy. Then he related an incident about Chaki to show that what stuff he was made of. It seems Chaki had a hand-grenade in his pocket given by Dutt. They were sitting together somewhere with Bidhan Roy by the side of Dutt.

SRI AUROBINDO: Bidhan Roy?

NIRODBARAN: Yes, but Roy didn't know anything at all about those things, nor did Dutt tell him. Chaki was sitting perfectly calm and composed, a boy who was to kill thirty or forty people at any moment. There was to be a cricket match to which Sir Andrew Fraser was to come, but he didn't turn up because he suspected something So the thing didn't come off. When Dutt met Chaki the next time at Darjeeling-

SRI AUROBINDO: Charu Dutt seems to be everywhere. Yet I never knew that he was actually in the movement. Next?

SATYENDRA: He must have been playing a big role, Sir.

NIRODBARAN: Just to test him Dutt said to Chaki, "Prafulla, what do you think about our leaders who are remaining safe behind the scene while putting you young people in danger?" Chaki suddenly clasped Charu's feet and said , "Are you testing me? My duty is to do what I am commanded." "Such was the material,"

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Charu said, "first-rate boys and, added to everything else, the yogic force made them remarkable." It seems Barin was giving them spiritual training.

SRI AUROBINDO: It was Lele who gave them the initiation into Yoga. Barin called down Lele from Bombay for that purpose.

NIRODBARAN: Lele, it appears, after seeing Chaki was very much impressed and picked him out from the group. He wanted to take Chaki with him to make him a fine Yogi and consulted you and you replied that he should ask Dutt. Lele remarked that such fine boys were being wasted in the movement.

SRI AUROBINDO: I said Dutt should be asked? But does he mean to say that Lele knew about the movement? He knew nothing at all except at the end when he said to Barin, "You have all along deceived me. I thought you wanted to practise Yoga and for that reason you called me. Now give it up, give it up, otherwise you will fall into a ditch."

NIRODBARAN: Dutt said, "These boys are being wasted," so Lele knew perhaps.

SRI AUROBINDO: If he had known, he would have immediately left them. He thought all along that they were practising Yoga. If he had known, Noren Goswami would have brought it into the trial as evidence. The only thing that came out about him was a note, "Rub me with ghee," written by Lele himself on a piece of paper (laughter), as a sort of service to him. Now go on.

NIRODBARAN: You asked Lele to consult Dutt about Chaki.

SRI AUROBINDO: Nonsense! Never mind. Then?

NIRODBARAN: So you called Dutt to your house. It was a single-storied house, he said, rather low, with a low basement or ground floor.

SRI AUROBINDO: When was it? If it was my house it must have been after the Surat Congress when Lele came to Calcutta.

NIRODBARAN: May be. Dutt entered the house, found you and Lele sitting while Chaki was loitering outside.

SRI AUROBINDO: Chaki was there?

NIRODBARAN: Yes. Lele asked Dutt about Chaki. Dutt simply refused and referred him to you. You said, "I have nothing to say in the matter."

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know anything about it at all. When did Dutt come to my house? Where was he then? Of course, I

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would have given that answer if I had been asked. God knows where he has got all this from.

SATYENDRA: Must be out of his own fertile brain. Sir.

NIRODBARAN: The boy himself was called and asked his opinion. He said, pointing to you—

SRI AUROBINDO: Me? Good Lord! I had nothing to do with them. It was all Barin's work. I never knew who these boys were and never saw them. Only once Barin brought a troop of them to my house but they all waited below. It is true that Barin used to consult me or Mullick for any advice. But the whole movement was in his hands. I had no time for it. I was busy with Congress politics and Bande Mataram. My part in it was most undramatic. If Dutt had been in the movement, Barin would surely have told me but he never mentioned Dutt's name. If I had been the head, I would have been more cautious.

NIRODBARAN: Barin also wrote that you were the leader and brain of the movement.

SRI AUROBINDO: My connection with the movement began before I openly joined politics. Okakura started the revolutionary movement at Calcutta, but there was always a quarrel going on among the members. When I came to Calcutta, I came in contact with the party. They had no organisation at all. Their main programme was to beat some magistrates, and quarrels were going on. So I organised them and reconciled their quarrels and went back to Baroda. Again a quarrel broke out, again I came and reconciled them; the whole thing then went into Barin's hands. Terrorism was only a subordinate movement. It could have been important if the armed revolution would have come, the revolution for which we wanted to prepare the whole country, but I was too busy with the open political movement to prepare the country in that way. This terroristic movement was to prepare the young men with some sort of a military training, to kill and get killed. Otherwise it was never my idea that by throwing a few bombs we could overthrow the British Government. And that probably was the reason for the split among them. P. Mitra was for original idea while Barin was for this terrorism. I was never in direct contact with the movement nor with the young men and didn't know them. Only in jail did I come in contact with them, especially Nolini, Bejoy, etc. When I came out of jail. Jatin Banerji and others again approached me and I organised the party again.

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NIRODBARAN: There is no Dutt in the picture. What part did he play then?

SRI AUROBINDO: He was only in the know of the movement. Most of the time he was at his judgeship at Bombay.

NIRODBARAN: As for Chaki, it seems he shot himself.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it was in the Kingsford case, along with Khudiram.

NIRODBARAN: About Prafulla Chakravarty, Dutt said he died in Deoghar in the hills where Barin and others went to experiment with explosives. It seems a bomb exploded in mid air instead of on the ground and a splinter struck Chakravarty in the head, by which he died.

SRI AUROBINDO: I see. I didn't know that.

NIRODBARAN: After the accident, Barin and Upen etc., called for Dutt. Dutt arrived and saw that something had gone wrong. Charu Dutt again! How could he be consulted?

SRI AUROBINDO: Where was he?

NIRODBARAN: Maybe in Calcutta. I am not sure. They were very dejected. They explained what had happened to him and asked how to dispose of the body. Something had to be done. Otherwise the body would be found and identified.

SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! Does it mean that Barin left the body there and came to Calcutta for advice? Barin might have been rash but he was not so foolish.

NIRODBARAN: Dutt advised them to disfigure the face.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is taken from Pulin Das. Pulin Das did the same thing in a case like that.

NIRODBARAN: Now it seems some people were arrested but no trace could be found of Chakravarty. His father was very worried.

SRI AUROBINDO: I thought his father knew all about his son's movements and said that he had become a Sannyasi.

NIRODBARAN: But he didn't know about his death. Dutt was at that time interned at Cooch Bihar. He had no means of communication -with anybody. He asked a pleader friend of his at Rangpur to see him about some legal affair. When he came, Dutt told him to communicate the news to the father.

SRI AUROBINDO: Barin was very reckless. On the eve of the search he brought two bombs to my house. I told him, "Take them away. Don't you know that the house is going to be searched? And

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remove the things from Maniktala." He took the bombs away but didn't do anything at Maniktala.

SATYENDRA: He has written about it in his book. Just as he was removing things the police came, he said. He seemed to be a man on whom responsibility was sitting very lightly.

SRI AUROBINDO: Then he knew that the police were watching him but didn't care about it at all.

NIRODBARAN: Dutt said that the mistakes and accidents happened because you were passing through some new phase in sadhana, on account of which you couldn't be vigilant enough. Sisir Mitra and Nolini don't believe that you would have been so careless with such a heavy responsibility on you.

SRI AUROBINDO: As I said, I had nothing to do directly with the movement. I would have been very cautious.

NIRODBARAN: I asked Dutt if the spiritual force he spoke of among the boys had been imparted by you.

SRI AUROBINDO: I didn't impart anything.

NIRODBARAN: He said, "I doubt it. Firstly Sri Aurobindo had not advanced sufficiently in Yoga at that time to do that, and secondly he was himself passing through a struggle."

SRI AUROBINDO: No, I didn't give them any force. There was at that time a break in my sadhana because the pressure of work was too much. The sadhana was renewed after my contact with Lele. The boys were revolutionary from the beginning; it was their own force that moved them.

EVENING

NIRODBARAN: I have another letter from A. He has come out again with his scheme of village reconstruction. It is more elaborate now. One interesting point I find is a common kitchen.

PURANI: That is nothing new, and I doubt very much how far it will work out. Village people have a strong individuality in these things. They will hardly agree to share common cooked food.

SATYENDRA: In this land of caste and creed and untouchability, how can they accept a common kitchen?

NIRODBARAN: A further writes: "I now see that my ideas came from the universal mind."

SRI AUROBINDO: Universal mind? That is too much to say.

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NIRODBARAN: It's my mistake. Instead of "general" I read "universal".

SRI AUROBINDO: Then?

NIRODBARAN: Then he says: "They come out with such force that it seems there must be some truth in them."

SRI AUROBINDO: That's right.

NIRODBARAN: He continues: "So I must know their Swarupa, true form, either to accept or reject them. Now the most urgent need of the country is some sort of unity, and unity can only come if the country has a vigorous and living programme of work acceptable to all and sundry."

SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord!

NIRODBARAN: "For this," says A, "I have fixed a programme — "

SRI AUROBINDO: For your approval. (Laughter) Then?

NIRODBARAN: "The programme is: (1) none shall go unfed, (2) none untreated, and (3) none uneducated. This is very possible if all villagers are combined -as was in ancient India."

SRI AUROBINDO: How does he know it was so in ancient India?

NIRODBARAN: I don't know. He goes on: "There was no common property in India. Following the ancient way, my idea is to have village institutions fitting present conditions. The main thing is a common kitchen."

SRI AUROBINDO: Why not have everything else in common too? (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: Everybody will come and eat anything they like in the common kitchen?

NIRODBARAN: No, according to one's needs. In such an institution, poor people who go without food will be fed.

SRI AUROBINDO: How is it to run? Who will pay the expenses?

NIRODBARAN: According to one's means one will contribute. If it is run on a large scale, expenses will be much less.

PURANI: Then nobody will pay and everybody will come to eat.

SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so — and it will encourage idleness.

NIRODBARAN: There will also be a dispensary under the supervision of a qualified doctor who will be maintained by two or three villages combined.

PURANI: If A goes to the villages he will find out how very difficult it is to get people to pay the expenses. Unless the Government gives support, the public can't run the dispensaries.

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NIRODBARAN: And if the Government doesn't?

PURANI: Then try to capture the Government itself.

NIRODBARAN: That is more easily said than done. Both constructive work and the fight for freedom would have to go hand in hand, as with Gandhi at present.

SRI AUROBINDO: With very little success, I am afraid.

PURANI: I know of cases where people wanted to help the villagers by paying off their loans, etc., but it was found that the villagers were very shrewd, astute folk, who were more than a match for the city people.

SRI AUROBINDO: A is living in his mind; he has lost touch with practical reality.

SATYENDRA (seeing N trying to translate A's Bengali into English): Why doesn't he write in English? That will save you the trouble of translation.

NIRODBARAN: Now I will ask him to.

SRI AUROBINDO: Now? (Laughter) I thought he had finished all his questions.

NIRODBARAN: He may begin some other theme. In the present letter, the last item is: to propagate Sri Aurobindo's ideas through books, essays, etc., in order to have a spiritual foundation.

SATYENDRA: They will understand the books?

SRI AUROBINDO: Even if they understand, will they be able to execute the ideas?

NIRODBARAN: A seems to have said to Dilip that he still has one weakness — the desire to work for the country.

SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): A great weakness. If he tries, he will meet with no better fate than Barin—namely, failure.

SATYENDRA: Barin and A are different personalities.

SRI AUROBINDO: Even then he will have the same fate. Barin went out to revolutionise the world.

NIRODBARAN: And he ended by revolutionising himself ! (Laughter) A is putting out all these ideas from his own unpublished novel.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he wanted to publish it but the Mother sat tight on the proposal. If he wants to write about politics, village reform, etc., he can do it for his own satisfaction but not for publication.

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29 FEBRUARY 1940

NIRODBARAN: While talking of the Burma rebellion and the Chittagong Armoury raid, Dutt came out with the belief that by such uprisings India can get independence.

SRI AUROBINDO: How will India do it?

NIRODBARAN: D asked Dutt what Surya Sen would have done if the British army had attacked. Dutt replied, "Where is the British army? It is a myth. There is only the Indian army and they won't shoot their own people. If in a few more places rebellion had occurred and succeeded, the country would have been converted."

SRI AUROBINDO: Would a few places like that convert the whole of India? Besides, what about the British navy and the British aeroplanes? England can bring her own army from home. Even as regards the Indian army, it would only be a part of it that would refuse to fight.

NIRODBARAN: Dutt says that during the Non-cooperation movement, the Gharwallis refused to shoot their own people.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, yes, but there are other troops that will shoot.

PURANI: The Gharwallis were afterwards court-martialled.

NIRODBARAN: Dutt also told a story of how at one time foreign governments were sought who were interested in India's struggle with the British. Actually, during the Bengal movement it seems a ship of ammunition from Germany was captured by the British Government.

SRI AUROBINDO: That was at the time of Rashbehari Ghose, perhaps in 1905 or 1908. The idea of revolution at that time was intelligible. But now, after the First World War, with so much development of the means of warfare, it is impossible.

NIRODBARAN: Dutt is going to write a review of your Life Divine.

SRI AUROBINDO: Is he a philosopher?

NIRODBARAN: I don't think so. Sisir Mitra seems to have asked him to do it.

PURANI: He can begin with a story.

SRI AUROBINDO: And end with a story. (Laughter)

PURANI: Barin appears to have written well about the Mother in Khulna Basi. (Sri Aurobindo smiled.)

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NIRODBARAN: Is what he says about the Mother true? He says that what would have taken you ten years in sadhana was done in one year by your contact with her.

SRI AUROBINDO: I may have said something like that -not these very words but the same substance.

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